Texas Motocross Riders Union

[TMRU]

Ok guys, looks like its high time we take our sport back...as we all know with the recent economic downturn the sport has suffered enough...then you add on the promoters egos and Texas motocross is all but dead...This is the perfect opportunity for us (the customers) of this sport to take control and speak with our wallets. We want good races I.E. the pro circuit series of old.. 1100, 1200 entries, good tracks to practice on, safety that is uniform across the state, and most of all Promoter cooperation...
Please understand that this is not just for racers, but also the weekend warrior, the woods riders, anyone who owns a dirtbike...the future of texas motocross depends on it...


Objective- Band together as riders and enthusiasts of the sport to regulate tracks scheduling on top of each other out of spite, desperation or any other reason. Regulate the safety of the riders across the state. To give ourselves a voice in the sport that we fund.

Goals- To form a comittee of capable members to oversee race, and practice schedules, Implement safety regulations and standards aand enforce them. Obtain legal representation for the group, and consult that representation on the individual member or groups behalf

Feel free to cuss and discuss...IT IS TIME!

[motocop729]

So we are going to put together a team with legal representation to attack the ones with the big egos who own the tracks that allow us to come to their tracks and ride.

Well if I owned a track and through the open records act found out who were members they could pretty much take a hike. Because being a business owner I have the right to refuse business to anyone. Then to top that if they did come on my property I would have them issued a criminal tresspass warning so if they came back they would need legal representation to get their ass out of jail.

I hate the idea of tracks stepping on top of each other as well as the other guy, but when they hear lawyer the simple out is to keep you the member of TMRU off THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY.

[Cokeham]

:popcorn2:

[TMRU]

so you obviously do not have the good or future of this sport in mind. Nor do you know how a union works. The legal representation is of the smallest importance of that post. I have legal representation to fight my speeding tickets, are you going to keep me off of your highways?
Keep in mind your statement, "allow us to come to their tracks and ride" We do not ride there for free, and without us, the riders, all those track owners have is a piece of land with dirt piles all over it. Again, with your statement you do not have the good or future of this sport in mind. With all riders banded together as members of the Texas Motocross Riders Union, are these track owners going to tell us all as a group to "take a hike?" Not likely if they still want to have a buisness...If you do not care about the future of this sport in Texas I ask that you not post on this topic..Your entire post is from the perspective of a track owner...the track owners are one of the largest reasons this is needed!

[TMRU]

So we are going to put together a team with legal representation to attack the ones . Open your eyes Motocop...Noone said anything about attacking anyone...Coordinate is a good word to use and when you plug that word into your statement it has no merrit now does it?

[Junk]

Hmm, interesting post and interesting timing....I agree that the sport is not doing well, hell I am ashamed and sickened to be a part of it more days than I am proud of it...BUT motocop brings up a good point, we have to remember these track owners are indeed doing this on their dime and on their property. Never mind the fact that we could in fact for the union and strong arm them...I personally know a lot of these people, see their struggles, and how much sacrifice they make for our good...and If a union came to me telling me when I could be open, I would throw in the towel, to be perfectly honest...I would like to add that tracks have gotten a lot better about over scheduling over each other, at least they meet and try to schedule things out...

At the tracks I have been to in the last month, rider turnout has been LOW, we are talking MAYBE 100 riders, and it has not been due to over scheduling...I think its the economy...none the less. I let my wallet do the talking...

On rider representation: No one really gives a damn anymore. There are tracks out there that are SO dangerous, its a joke. We are talking 3 flags for a full track, if any flags at all. Tracks with NUMEROUS safety violations, but people still go there all the time. In some cases, if you speak up against said tracks you get slandered by their goon squads, ect...

In a perfect world I would like to suggest that maybe instead of regulating the businesses, we could all get together and just attend one event a weekend as a community, however, I doubt it would work because people are going to do what they are going to do....

I agree this sport needs help, and I encourage and provide a forum to any dialog that aid in that, but I think before I step on a union band wagon (strictly because I think unions, although born out of good intention, are usually unfair for business owners), I would like to hear more. Talk on:

[BDP-381]

None of this will work. There are too many tracks and not enough riders. There are also too many races and not enough racers..supply and demand and we have too much supply.

This problem is great for practicing because we can go to different tracks all the time but sucks for racing because everybody is so spread out. I think things have got a lot better here recently as far as promoters and races not doubling up goes.

[motocop729]

so you obviously do not have the good or future of this sport in mind. Nor do you know how a union works. The legal representation is of the smallest importance of that post. I have legal representation to fight my speeding tickets, are you going to keep me off of your highways?
Keep in mind your statement, "allow us to come to their tracks and ride" We do not ride there for free, and without us, the riders, all those track owners have is a piece of land with dirt piles all over it. Again, with your statement you do not have the good or future of this sport in mind. With all riders banded together as members of the Texas Motocross Riders Union, are these track owners going to tell us all as a group to "take a hike?" Not likely if they still want to have a buisness...If you do not care about the future of this sport in Texas I ask that you not post on this topic..Your entire post is from the perspective of a track owner...the track owners are one of the largest reasons this is needed!

1. I don't own the highways. I just enforce the laws on them which I swore to do. Track owners own their land
2. Its their land. They allow us to ride there. its their business to run the track and charge a fee. If you don't like it take the TMRU else where and build your own facility else where and let your outstanding member base ride for free.
3. I do have the future of this sport in mind because I spend my money, enforcing taffic laws on highways that you think I own, at the places I love to ride so they can 1 make money, two fuel the equipment to make the tracks what they are, and three promote races etc.
4. In order for this to work you need a heavy membership but even then I would still tell you to take a hike because of sue happy people in unions.
5. Track owners are going to do what they want when they want with THEIR PROPERTY.

Let the Obama administration screw up American not motocross.

[motocop729]

Open your eyes Motocop...Noone said anything about attacking anyone...Coordinate is a good word to use and when you plug that word into your statement it has no merrit now does it?


Obama is trying to co-ordinate health care and the US. Is he successful?? In my opinion no.

With that in mind you said hire legal representation. Ask yourself this? If I created a union to tell you how to run your business that you own what would you do. You would tell me as the "customer" to leave. Why because you wouldn't want my union to use that legal representation to co-ordinate a law suit.

[CamP]

The main problem is new bikes that retail for $9,000. The OEM's sold less than 50,000 competition dirt bikes in the US last year. That's a far cry from the 1,000,000 dirt bikes they sold in 1979.

[Kasberg187]

This should get good.

Horrible idea, by the way. Please convince me otherwise. HOW does this work?

[motocop729]

Ok guys, looks like its high time we take our sport back...This is the perfect opportunity for us (the customers) of this sport to take control and speak with our wallets.

Goals- To form a comittee of capable members to oversee race, and practice schedules, Implement safety regulations and standards aand enforce them. Obtain legal representation for the group, and consult that representation on the individual member or groups behalf

Feel free to cuss and discuss...IT IS TIME!


This is what I mean. I will tell you this. Create the union. I hope you get 100% membership because if you don't it won't work. Also when a track owner or any reasonable or prudent person knows that they have a group, who obtained legal representation, coming to their business they are going to refuse them that business because they have the right too. Its their property. Its bad enough we are taxed and taxed again to have some BS union to try to come in and tell me what I am or am not going to do with my property. if you don't like it move to Canada.

[iracekx]

IMO it's the economy I struggle to get to ride as much because I have to work just to make ends meet. I have been going to Burleson to race just because it's cheap. Don't get me wrong it's no MX underground Swan or all of the others. It's the dollar that it comes down to I can go out there race with my buddies run 2 classes and gate fee all for 36 bucks. There are some races that they are 40 a class I would love to race them, but the tracks are farther off which means more gas money and there are no discount on 2nd class. I wish times were not so tough so I could afford to do some racing at other tracks. Maybe we can get some better choices in office in 2014 so I don't have to struggle with money. Back when Bush was in office I ran the Blizzard series the winter series and money was not an issue I can't say that now.

[motocop729]

IMO it's the economy I struggle to get to ride as much because I have to work just to make ends meet. I have been going to Burleson to race just because it's cheap. Don't get me wrong it's no MX underground Swan or all of the others. It's the dollar that it comes down to I can go out there race with my buddies run 2 classes and gate fee all for 36 bucks. There are some races that they are 40 a class I would love to race them, but the tracks are farther off which means more gas money and there are no discount on 2nd class. I wish times were not so tough so I could afford to do some racing at other tracks. Maybe we can get some better choices in office in 2014 so I don't have to struggle with money. Back when Bush was in office I ran the Blizzard series the winter series and money was not an issue I can't say that now.

+1

[ascend75]

The main problem is new bikes that retail for $9,000. The OEM's sold less than 50,000 competition dirt bikes in the US last year. That's a far cry from the 1,000,000 dirt bikes they sold in 1979.

I think this is the biggest reason why turnout is not up to par. Watching the 250's this weekend was frightening in the fact that the factory teams with the best mechanics, gear and support can't keep their bikes running. Weigandt even made some comment like "the latest catchphrase in mx is "my bike is cutting out"." It's not just the $9k for the bike either because by the time you throw in good safety gear (especially w/ a good helmet and set of knee braces), trailer, etc. the total goes up significantly from there. Wife and kids want to ride too? Now you're facing a 2nd mortgage if you want to be an mx family.

If you are an mx addict however, it can all be worth it, but the problem is I think that less and less people are willing to even try the sport because of gross initial investment.

[Junk]

If you are an mx addict however, it can all be worth it, but the problem is I think that less and less people are willing to even try the sport because of gross initial investment.

Bingo...

[BDP-381]

Bingo...

BS, The lifeline of MX is pending the participation of the kids. You dont need a $9K bike or big hauler to get started. You can buy a $500 PW50 or $1,200 KX65 and compete and have fun. The initial investment isnt shit, it cost that much to play baseball or football on a competitive level.

[Junk]

Still, a large number of participants are adults. Believe it or not, racing happens on Sunday too BDP. I know a lot of adult MXers on older bikes who can't afford or justify a new bike to put in the garage, much less $20-$25 to get into the gates twice a week.

Furthermore, I would say maybe only 25% of people that ride even race regularly. the sport depends on those people who don't race, who cant afford bikes to ride and support the tracks and dealerships.

[Red_Neck]

BS, The lifeline of MX is pending the participation of the kids. You dont need a $9K bike or big hauler to get started. You can buy a $500 PW50 or $1,200 KX65 and compete and have fun. The initial investment isnt shit, it cost that much to play baseball or football on a competitive level.


BDP-381

You have no clue what you are talking about

Got my wife and 2 boy into dirt biking this past April

2 TTR 125’s, and 1 DRZ 125 – all used

Routine maintenance on the bikes – from a shop just to make sure they were reliable

Then I replaced the worn out items on the bikes (tires, one bad rear wheel, new bearings/ bushings etc.)

Riding gear for 3 people (nothing fancy or top of the line – but solid and safe)

Utility Trailer (nothing fancy) – then spent a week welding on it to make it useful


I’ve got over $10K spent and its still climbing – This is NOT counting what I’ve spent on me as I was already riding


This sport is expensive to enter


RN

[BDP-381]

Still, a large number of participants are adults. Believe it or not, racing happens on Sunday too BDP. I know a lot of adult MXers on older bikes who can't afford or justify a new bike to put in the garage, much less $20-$25 to get into the gates twice a week.

Furthermore, I would say maybe only 25% of people that ride even race regularly. the sport depends on those people who don't race, who cant afford bikes to ride and support the tracks and dealerships.

We race plenty of Sundays I know how it works. You dont need a new bike to race, my son has NEVER had a new bike and we race at a respectable level. Not everybody can afford to race, I understand that, but I still dont think thats the root of the problem. You can race at a lower level if you choose.

Hell you can go practice all day for $15-20 at most tracks around here, that is a damn good deal if you ask me.

And Red_Neck, I have a clue and have been doing this a lot longer then you. If your entire family is racing / riding and the cost is X 3 I can see where cost is a big concern. I guess you could find another sport that your family can do together for a lot cheaper but that is honestly an anomaly in this sport.

[TMRU]

Motocop..I have seen enough and you obviously have no real clue about this sport...it is pointless for me to argue a point, ligitimate or otherwise, with someone so close minded..thanks for chiming in but from now on all i see is charlie browns teacher when you type...wha wha whaa whaaa wha
Forget the lawyer...Einstein....everyone, and every good buisness has a lawyer...that has no real bearing on this topic...anyone can sue anytime...forget that part..Holy Hell

Pertinant facts...as a large group af joined together riders, we can say have your little races on top of each other...our group wont be there...I mean whats the point? are we really missing anything not racing with 5 other people on the gate? no...But when you promoters decide to get on the same page and actually do something for the good of the sport and riders, we will be there... Im pretty sure the promoters would like to have a lerge unified group of riders who want whats best for the sport at their event....if they dont, then they can continue having their small pointless races...this includes EVERY track..none of them are above this...heck, there hasnt been a good race in texas since the Oak hill national...and there wont be one untile the oakhill national next year if something doesnt change...

[jmpatt79]

well i agree with both sides , i bought a new bike and bought my son a bike and all the gear . so i have a hard time going to the races when there is only 100 bikes racing .....if i spend 150 $$ dollars to go to the races i want 250 plus bikes there .....we all know this is not happening now ,so i think me and my kid will be doing some practice for a while until the rider counts goes up ...... i luv racing but i cant afford it right now ..... i might make some exceptions if there is 250 bikes at a race though .......see you at the track

[TMRU]

the other side of this thing is this...we all practice, but if a practice track is unsafe we will have the clout to say..we, the group, will not come to your track to practice unless you take the proper measure to make your track safer for us to ride on...there are several examples of this in our area now...It will benifit all outlets of our sport!

[Red_Neck]

And Red_Neck, I have a clue and have been doing this a lot longer then you. If your entire family is racing / riding and the cost is X 3 I can see where cost is a big concern. I guess you could find another sport that your family can do together for a lot cheaper but that is honestly an anomaly in this sport.

Really not in to the mine’s bigger than yours crap…. After all I am supposed to be older and wiser (more regal) by now....

But what the hell – as you wish…


I rode my first bike in 1968.., a Yamaha 100 – You??


I’ll also add you would be hard pressed to name one other sport/ hobby I haven’t tried… All in a quest to find something my entire family is enthusiastic about – luckily I can absorb the costs

Many can’t in today’s economy…

And dirt biking is one of the more expensive hobbies – injuries not withstanding


Your turn... :)



TMRU

Apologies for the diversion….

RN

[TMRU]

No apologies needed sir..I beliecve you have some good points..and I am am only here for the good of OUR sport...no other reason

[Red_Neck]

No apologies needed sir..I beliecve you have some good points..and I am am only here for the good of OUR sport...no other reason

TMRU

First allow me to state

I hate unions and all they stand for….

I would also say geting 10 people to agree on anything is hard… let alone a few hundred….

Furthermore – if you approached the track owners in a hostile or threatening way – it would be disastrous….

BUT

If you could build a coalition… or a “club” akin to TORN…

Then negotiate/ work with the owners for dates / payouts….

Think of the influence that would have… especially if you could guarantee a certain amount of rider turn out

Owners would see more participants…. Fans would get a better show… From there it could grow…, even flourish…. (advertising.. and putting on a good show – would be paramount)


Also think of the group buying discounts you may be able to work out… Possibly lower some of the costs for us all



There is power in numbers Sir…

Food for thought

RN

[BDP-381]

Really not in to the mine’s bigger than yours crap…. After all I am supposed to be older and wiser (more regal) by now....

But what the hell – as you wish…


I rode my first bike in 1968.., a Yamaha 100 – You??


I’ll also add you would be hard pressed to name one other sport/ hobby I haven’t tried… All in a quest to find something my entire family is enthusiastic about – luckily I can absorb the costs

Many can’t in today’s economy…

And dirt biking is one of the more expensive hobbies – injuries not withstanding


Your turn... :)



TMRU

Apologies for the diversion….

RN

Alright this is getting stupid. The fact that you rode a Yamaha 100 before I was born means absolutely nothing in regards to this subject. The fact that we have been racing in the DFW and surrounding areas / states for 6 years means a lot. My point is that the initial cost to go race a local race on a used bike is NOT killing this sport. The prices to race and practice vs the cost of living over the past 10 years favors the rider/racer. I am not saying that it is a cheap hobby but I am saying that its not what is killing the sport.

Back 15 years ago when you had 5 tracks racing and 2500 riders the gates were big, now you have 15 tracks racing and 3500 riders and the gates are small, do the math.. My rider #'s are obviously estimates but hopefully you get the point.

And I will also say that the economy has affected the rider/racer #'s, as if all was as it was in the mid 90's we would have more riders to support the excess # of tracks.

[TMRU]

Nothing about this is hostile...This is the riders coming together to say that we will not be affected by the fueds that are ongoing between track owners. Nor will we let any one track dictate what the other tracks in this area are doing...We need a voice in this thing or what little there is left will be gone... sure, the trackowners have the right to do what they want, but if one track schedules a race, and then another goes on top of it because they think they can and are superior to that other track, we will stand up and say we are supporting the one that had the date first..instead of letting one track strogarm the others....keep in mind..the best tracks in this state do not even have a starting gate on the property so for one to think that they are superior to another is stricktly subject to the amount of riders that show up on that given day....that, my friends, is up to us...the customers!

[BDP-381]

If every MX track in the greater DFW area took turns and had a solo race each weekend there would be maybe 150 entries at each race.

[TMRU]

you have a point..but if texas had a statewide race series amoung the large tracks, and the local tracks had race dates in between, and we gave people an actual reason to come to said races (again I.E. the pro circuit series) we could posibly again have some large races in texas. along with the guys that just like to go to small races still having something for them...I keep using the PC series for an example because that was the best thing Texas had in the past 10 years...Everyone who raced motocross in texas and the surrounding states showed up to those....there was a reason for that!

[Red_Neck]

TMRU

Few random thoughts

You said “nothing about this is hostile”


Yet your opening post contains undertones of hostility… as do your retorts to MC (Moto Cop 729)….

MC, and his ilk, is exactly who you’ll need as members to make this work – yet in your last response to him, you alienated him… and probably most everyone else of his kind….

His kind possess the knowledge…, the experience…, more importantly the means…, that if combined – could become the catalyst to give this “club/ group” your planning the wherewithal to have a voice…, and the influence necessary to bring about a positive change….

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All Racers are competitive by nature – asking them to come together and agree on anything – will be hard…

But piss one off and they don’t soon forget – neither do their friends….

MC is good people….

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A weekly race may be too much – remember you need a good showing… and a good show… and most likely your bread and butter member will be older… and have a family (but they also have the largest disposable income on average to support their racing habit)


Holding a monthly event in the beginning…, that follows a circuit in/ around the DFW Area may make for a more entertaining show – that reaches more fans…


It’ll also give the racers time for their families.., time to prepare…, time to fit the next race into their budget and schedule…. at least one race should be close to their home…., possibly even their local track… the benefits go on and on…


Assuming your racing events take root – and it…, along with the membership grows – then you can contemplate more frequent races as you’ll have the base to support it.


Start small…. create a solid foundation…, and then grow it… AND never ever alienate potential members along your way – the MX community simply ain’t that big…

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Racers will never control a track…, a venue…, or a series… They never have… and they never will…

Fans on the other hand rule…

But racers can create the excitement…, the entertainment…, the experience… that fans want/ crave/ pay for… which in turn will get the attention of the owners

Understand this – you will understand how to effect change in that which you love….

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said – just some random thoughts – from a dumbass redneck


I wish you success in your quest ….

RN

[mxjeff2]

There are some good arguments made here on both sides. I agree don't use the word union or any ideals associated with unions.

There are definitely two threads going here and my head hurts from bouncing back and forth.

I no longer ride or race so ignore my opinions.

[texomacountry]

This is staight up economics guys. The economy is slow and there is less disposable income across all income levels. Expensive bikes, engine repairs, and gas are bad enough but just the everyday cost of living is eating into disposable income. Also, as everyone already knows, there are to many tracks chasing fewer and fewer riders because of this. You should support the tracks that provide you the best and safest product and the free market will do the rest. 5 years from now there may be only 5 tracks left with old rebuilt 2 strokes practicing every weekend or 15 tracks and bikes with onboard computers and 2 wheel drive, standard. You may be surprised who survives in the end.

P.S. - I think a riders union is a BAD idea on the amateur level. A union on the pro level might be helpful if setup and ran properly.

[TMRU]

please keep in mind guys...anything i say is mearly suggestion...the direction this thing takes will be up to the members... and to blame this all on economics is wrong...there are lots of folks out there...myself included, who do not waste their time with going to any local texas races..not because they cant afford it but because there are really none worth going to. Give people a reason to go to the races and they will!

[SG Berm book]

Interesting thread and posts....Haha!

TMRU - since you posted this up as a suggestion in hopes for people to get behind it, and logged into this website under the username TMRU -- would you mind letting everyone know your real name / who you are? Since you are brainstorming this and attempting to get people to see your side... your identity will surely come out eventually anyway.

May want to throw it out there now so people know who their dealing with... just a thought !?

[Kasberg187]

Sounds like you're creating the AMA/GNC and the Best of Texas series.

It's been done. Support the movement that's already been started. AMA regulates tracks, both in safety and infrastructure. So only race the AMA and GNC tracks. If something is awry, call Richard White. Richard provides safety services to all tracks, from flagger education to track layout inspection. Again - just race the AMA and GNC tracks.

Support the Best of Texas series. It runs at the best tracks in the area and entries are high. Run the Best of Texas Fall series, the Texas Winter Series, and the Best of Texas Spring Series.

You're not doing anything new. Throw your lot in with the tracks that are already trying to make a difference (Freestone, Oak Hill, Underground, Village Creek, etc).

Did you not see this series?
http://oakhillmx.com/2011/2011-TSS-2.jpg

And don't give me any bullshit about low entries unless you were at the race. I hate that more than anything - "We didn't come to your race because your turnout is low." No shit it's low - YOU DIDN'T SHOW UP. If every one of you that don't race because the turnouts are low would show up and race, the turnouts wouldn't be low! IT'S YOUR FAULT.

[mx334]

Unions are bad,they think theyr'e helping but usually cause a bigger problem. Example U.S. economy,big business got sick of paying folks $25 an hour to push a button on a machine,so now everything we own is made in China for $.10 an hour at the hands of children,and the quality reflects.

[WFO]

Like Jeff said,...lots of good input and almost everyone has a good point, and a more than plenty of great reason(s) why this sport isn't doing as well as it did in the late 90's and early 2000.
One point I'd like to make is: If you're a track open to the public you would be hard pressed to deny anyone entry because they were a member of said organization....discrimination would put you in court and most likely lead to your demise.

Then there is the fabulous AMA. This organization can and should have taken the lead, and mandated the 250 class (lites) and made it a stock class other than pipe and susp. By that I mean ALL Stock susp components. When you have to spend 20k+ on a 250 just to get it competitive against the likes of the Pro Circuit monopoly and GEICO, it's killing the sport at the Pro Level.
Mitch OWNS (in jest) the AMA and probably MX Sports as well. Davey Coombs, change this!
That said, we allowed California to institute rules and regulations for the rest of the USA. It's been going on for years.
If the Japanese aren't looking at the orange revolution they better start. KTM has taken over the off-road market and soon will the 4 wheeler (racing) market. We surely missed the boat by eliminating the Jap 2 strokes, and quite possibly the sport as we know it.
My next rant would be too many tracks that can't/don't offer the same race quality. There are plenty of them. Sure they are fun for practice, but on a very large race day, they aren't wide enough, long enough or have the quality facilities to make for a good race.
That said, anyone can build a track, (and have) charge 15 bucks and you get to ride. Then you have track owners pissed they can't be part of a series (I wonder why) so they hold little races here and there, dilute the turnout of the bigger/better tracks and,.....well you all know it's happening.
Sure the economy has a big impact as well.
Throw in some local and big-time politics and this is what we get......
My racing days are quickly coming to a close, and I'm sure glad a got to be a part of the good old days.

[CamP]

New bike sales are the bellwether for the sport. 15 years ago the OEM's sold 250,000 competition dirt bike units a year. Last year they sold 50,000 units. These stats come from the Motorcycle Industry Council. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that increasing the cost of the bikes by 50% reduced new bike sales by 80%.

Works bikes for the everyman is killing the sport.

[waterboy58]

Interesting concept however promoters in the US are making it work with series that are customer friendly not only for the rider but for the spectator. The MX industry as a whole is has felt the economic crunch to say the least, a good series with the amateur rider in mind with sponsors getting involved and putting up solid overall awards that will ultimately attract the riders and spectators alike & doing all of this without a union of committee directing the efforts of the owners.

I know one promoter/track owner in Central Florida in one of the worst economically hit areas of the country that packs the place on Friday nights with their series, to say the least he has a winning formula for success at a time in this sport when the dollars and fans are leaving.

I commend every track owner out there that continues to endure for the love of the sport and those that sacrifice to ensure there are a least a few quality places left to ride for all of us, weekend warriors and the serious racer.

In my opinion, this sport is already full of Legalities, click's and ass kissing to say the least, the last thing it needs is another group trying to dictate an overall direction of a property owner & community. In my opinion we all have a right to choose, (at least today anyway), with the economic down turn still ongoing those options I am sure will get smaller for us all, In my opinion the worst is yet to come however make the best of what we have and be thankful that we still have a choice, I do know a few that no longer do.

[Shawn36]

Unions are bad,they think theyr'e helping but usually cause a bigger problem. Example U.S. economy,big business got sick of paying folks $25 an hour to push a button on a machine,so now everything we own is made in China for $.10 an hour at the hands of children,and the quality reflects.

Not to make this about unions alone but an under-paid overly competitive job market with aboslutely no long term job assurance is the answer? There are plenty of jobs out there that require far more than "pressing a button". If that's all you know then you need to be at McDonalds. My employer is unionized and has been for the better part of 65 years, but funny what happens when they try to vend things out to China. Shit didn't get built right. Less than 10% of the parts we originally expected China to make came back usable, even after 2+ years of trying to start them up. Not surprisingly all that work has come back and the company is making record profits with most of our contracts being done entirely in-house. The formula to make it work is out there, people lose sight of that because when they think union, they think of some dude running a press for 12 hours a day making 25 bucks an hour. Because that's exactly how it gets spun in the public eye. Where I work people are craftsman, and thank God for it because your ass is in our hands and workmanship ability everytime you hop on a plane. You wanna hop on a 747 that was 60% made in China? You're not gonna, because they can't do it.

[SG Berm book]

Interesting thread and posts....Haha!

TMRU - since you posted this up as a suggestion in hopes for people to get behind it, and logged into this website under the username TMRU -- would you mind letting everyone know your real name / who you are? Since you are brainstorming this and attempting to get people to see your side... your identity will surely come out eventually anyway.

May want to throw it out there now so people know who their dealing with... just a thought !?

Well, TMRU has logged into this website a couple of times since my post above.... But has not had anything to say. Hmmmm - let's all jump on this band wagon and give our names - come together as a group - share ideas - work in conjunction with the tracks (of which we know their names). You know, make this whole situation better for everyone! Yet, TMRU remains silent on his identity.

This is classic! --- Not trying to be too much of a wise-ass here, but if you really want to make a difference and you TRULY have the "Good Of The Sport in Mind".... BE PROUD of what your trying to accomplish and get other people involved with. Why not let everyone know who you are so they can form legitimate opinions and maybe appreciate your stance!

[Jack Rhodes]

Sorry guys, but rider unions have been tried many times in the past and have not worked since 1965 when the Texas Motorcycle racers Assn. was formed because there were NO tracks holding races in Texas. In 1966 Lake Lavon Raceway and the need for the association changed. The TMRA was sanctioned as an AMA club and was used only to obtain AMA race sanctions. AMA ruled everything in those days and only AMA Clubs were granted race sanctions. By the early 1970s the AMA lost it's power through court rulings. Promoters could then hold "outlaw" races with no fear of the riders losing their AMA cards.

A rider's union such as suggested now is like turning the insane asylum over to the inmates and could result with only two possibilities. Probably the union woul never get off the ground and would just fizzle out. However if the union gained some traction and started trying to tell promoters how to run their businesses they would more than likely just shut down and do something else. Right now there is very little or no profit in promotion so if the riders make it even tougher the promoters will find it easier to fo fishing.

[Junk]

I think now is time to discuss something: AMA is a bloodsucking joke in my eyes. Think about it, what does our membership REALLY get? A nice little membership pen, plastic card, and some spam about street biking and maintaining rights for them. I've seen several tracks get shut down without AMA help, hell, we are not even a real district like they have up north.

Sure they run pro racing, by charging the hell out of the riders to race. It's a shame, and I wonder how much money they make and put into the street side of things. Oh, the AMA is a sanctioning body? HA! The race is sanctioned by agreed upon rules, and a guy who is technically an AMA Ref. It's not like TAPS or anything like that is AMA.

My point is, when has any organization ever helped the sport, really?

Edit, I see the legal stuff the AMA has done in CA to be separate from the AMA of today.

[TMRU]

I read your post, who I am has no real bearing on what this is set out to accomplish. Instead of being so worried about the messanger, how about worry about the message? I am not hiding my identity, but again...That is not a pertinant fact to the movement. It is very simple, if th riders are interested in this, it will take off...if they are not, it wont...I am just taking the first step in the right direction to the cluster that texas motocross has become...Lets not all pretend that these promoter fueds and swelled heads do not play a huge part in the small turnouts that we see today...the people are riding dirtbikes...they just need a reason to go race them...everyone on the same page and working "TOGETHER" would be a good start

[SG Berm book]

Haha -- OK! --- Who you are has every bearing since you are the one starting this thread and throwing this hopeful upstart entity out there for everyone to see/get involved with! If your not going to take the reins... who is?


BTW - I know who you are..... just thought it may help if you were to actually let people know! I would bet 10 out of 10 on here do think that would be a " Pertinent Fact" as you are the one using the groups title name!

I am done with my friendly professional advise here - just thought it would help you! I will now sit back and watch this unfold!

[hook em 22]

It's all a cluster.. and I agree and disagree with portions of it all, but that's just me!

BDP is right.. too many riders, not enough racers and especially for the amount of tracks and practice days and races we already have here.. And, that's here in D/FW alone. Nevermind the rest of the state. Someone with less ad/hd than I, look up and find out how many race days a year are put on here within, let's say, 2 and a half hours of Dallas. There's too ****ing much. Anyone can always just say, oh well, "next weekend!" No biggie to miss a race anymore.

Now, I don't want to see too little either. Hell, I have no answers.. am sure I'm probably part of the problem, and don't know which way to lean.. But I know this Kasberg.. we've done way WAY MORE than our share of showing up to the 3 or 4 rider gates for our classes, and I respectfully present to you that I've earned the right to say I'm not sure how much longer I will keep doing that shit, so something better change. I agree.. I wish everyone would show up. But we have!! And, I don't want to much longer. We went to OKC this past weekend, specifically to race a little bigger gate. And, yes.. I know you're one that's trying!!

[Nellie]

http://txmotocross.com/forums/showthread.php/15082-Why-Oakhill-why

[Nellie]

:)

[TMRU]

As someone who is supposed to care about the sport, you sure are spending alot of time missing the message...A union is not mine or yours...its ours as a whole..I am not asking for friendly, unfriendly or otherwise professional advice, but thanks..im not sure that I ever saw it. AGAIN...for your reminding. UNION- a group of members who band together for the same cause.. not an individual..done talking about me, and you..back on topic...
wouldnt you, the rider/patron/customer like to voice your concerns about the safety of a track without having its faithful followers crucify you personally when that has no bearing on the subject? this would be just one of the topics we could take to a track and say "we are concerned as a whole"
these are the types of topics we would like to tackle
How about the current thread with the district championships being covered up be another series. I know one person says they scheduled long ago...but yet the other says they changed their dates...do we honestly think they are going to get this sorted out on thier own? doubtful...the past history of this exact type of thing tells us the promoter will basically say "screw you, im having my race" and guess who loses? US..as a group we could make a difference in matters like this....
think about it

[Junk]

Hook em 22, you know, Its true. There is one track in particular I can think of that has to pull in 200+ riders a day for practice...People are riding, racing is another story.

I know of few track owners, and yes there are some, who are not struggling to operate. However, some of these track owners are mortgaging their homes twice over to provide a track, I mean, we can't chastise them too much!

Obviously that one track has their business model down, maybe others should take note...Find out what works for your track. I know of other tracks in the area that would have a great turnout for practice if they just prepped worth a damn consistently, so maybe there is something to a steady practice turnout to keep the ship afloat?

Business in the MX industry is laughable, your an idiot if your in it! haha!

[Nellie]

NO!!! I do not want a union. They are usually corrupt at the top.

Just for kicks..
1.Do I have to join?
2. How much does it cost?
3. Who is going to manage, run, elect, coordinate, etc...?
4. What if my union decides that River Valley is not a safe and or worthy track to race? Am I then screwed?
Oh, my head hurts just thinking about what a cluster this would be.

[SG Berm book]

I am not missing the message at all. And I know you did not ask for friendly professional advise... BUT you did clearly state "Feel Free to Discuss" ---- so I brought up the discussion of "Let people know who you are" NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT -- I would think you would be PROUD.

I could give two shits one way or another on the word "Union", or "Apple Pie" for that matter. But if you log on here and tag your username as TMRU and are wanting to get people involved to kick this plan into action as a group... DON'T YOU THINK THEY WANT TO KNOW WHO THE HELL YOU ARE...?

With your rebuttals of...
A) I did not ask for friendly professional advise = YOU WANTED OPEN DISCUSSION
B) who I am has no real bearing on what this is set out to accomplish = SURE IT DOES, ASK ANYONE
C) I am not hiding my identity, but again...That is not a pertinant fact to the movement. = IT IS
D) I am just taking the first step in the right direction to the cluster = YOU HOLD THE REINS, WITH NO NAME
E) I am not asking for friendly, unfriendly or otherwise professional advice, but thanks..im not sure that I ever saw it. = IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT THEN I CAN'T HELP YOU.... WHICH WAS PART OF THE OPEN DISCUSSION YOU WANTED US TO FEEL FREE WITH.


I totally get that you don't see it! I was just trying to help you dude! I don't think I need to spell it out anymore. GOOD LUCK with your ambitions!

[TMRU]

there would have to be members
members will have to be committed to the same cause
the management of the group would be elected officials, voted in by the members
If the union decides river valley is unsafe, you would not be screwed. again, the members would vote in the officials, the officials would have a list of steps to take in a safety situation, again, voted on by the members
the goal is to eleviate problems...not alienate anyone!

[hook em 22]

there would have to be members
members will have to be committed to the same cause
the management of the group would be elected officials, voted in by the members
If the union decides river valley is unsafe, you would not be screwed. again, the members would vote in the officials, the officials would have a list of steps to take in a safety situation, again, voted on by the members
the goal is to eleviate problems...not alienate anyone!

How about instead of a RACER'S UNION.. you coordinate, form, organize and assemble a....


PROMOTER'S UNION

??????????????????

Wouldn't THAT alleviate most problems, and organize more success? All of them quite "possibly" on the same page then?? Just an idle thought!! :roll:

[TMRU]

sounds great, and I like where your head is Hook em but that has been tried and failed...the problem is we have promoters here who think their way is the only way...that creates a huge problem...Racers do not care what promoter has a beef with another promoter..Racers do not care what track owner thinks their track is the best...Racers just want good quality races, we do not currently get that

[motocop729]

My name is Justyn Wilder if some didn't know. Shan post his name since you know it if not pm me and Ill post it.

[SG Berm book]

Justyn - I respect everyone's privacy, so until he wants it to be public knowledge I will not give the name.

It's absolute crazy to think that someone would try to gather a group of loyalist with a common interest but not disclose who he is.

LETS JUST SAY - that Tom, John, Steve, Elmo, Shand, Justyn, Kim, Betty and good 'ole Leroy decided to move forward with this plan/committe/group.... The 9 of us would have to meet up, gather, discuss... and so on.... Wouldn't at that point TMRU be known and revealed to the public like all of the said names above. I guess I just don't see the reason not to be forth coming what so ever! If you truly stand for what you believe in -- lay it out there! What's there to hide?

I guess the bigger question is... When exactly do we get to know the person "behind the first step in the right direction"??????????????????????????

[TMRU]

at this point its simply comical that you care so much....for the slow learners...THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME...THIS IS ABOUT THE SPORT THAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CARE ABOUT...true colors fly fast!

[SG Berm book]

True colors --- what part of Open Discussion -and PEOPLE want to know... do you not get?

[hook em 22]

sounds great, and I like where your head is Hook em but that has been tried and failed...the problem is we have promoters here who think their way is the only way...that creates a huge problem...Racers do not care what promoter has a beef with another promoter..Racers do not care what track owner thinks their track is the best...Racers just want good quality races, we do not currently get that

If organizing several hundred, or more, riders seems doable, then facilitating assembly of 10-12 promoters really shouldn't be THAT hard, is it?

Look.. of course it is!! But organizing riders isn't even possible without "BINDING" committments from where we actually ride. Meaning, the only solution I see is where the promoters actually see a business plan in place for gross promotions across the region, that results in some sort of "PROFIT-SHARING" plan!! Come up with that plan, then come back to me as a racer..

[TMRU]

I see where you are going, and I can not say I disagree with you. Here is the thing...NOTHING is going to change, ever...Unless the people paying the money at the gates take a stand and give change a small push..agreed?

[WFO]

No one asked but what I see (read) is TMRU has a "Passion" for this sport, Texas and the disarray the sport is in here,....and elsewhere!
I'm fairly sure I know who TMRU is but could care less,...........I HEAR YOU!
What many of you will see (and sooner than you think) is the AMA, MX Sports and some others taking on Amateur racing and molding it into what THEY think it should be! Think I'm wrong? Look at Whitney, You would have to know the history going back to 2000. Next, look at Oak Hill (non- AMA).....they want Oak Hill to go AMA! Look at the guy that took over Whitney.....he couldn't even support his own website, much less a track, and then all of a sudden MX Sports comes in and they have a miraculous recovery (even though it was rained out) and all the Big Teams went there instead of Freestone. I'm not going to go into more details but I KNOW where the AMA AND MX Sports was when going up against Tony Miller! If we continue to dilute the racing here in Texas, what we will get is the AMA ONLY races, at the tracks the AMA favors (like it or not) and the rest of the so-so tracks will be practice only.....so,.......
if you are a track owner and you complain to the AMA about not having this or that,.....and you end up getting an AMA race,.....you better be smart enough to get a long term deal in writting,......or you will be a dust bowl in 3 years!

Motocop, you're young, and not yet a parent of a valid racer,.....when you get there,.......you will KNOW the "Passion"!
TMRU:

You have opened Pandoras Box,.....I can tell,.....you have a "Passion" for racing,.......I miss that feeling!

[SG Berm book]

TMRU --- Question for you, but first let me say that I have not made it clear to you, nor anyone how I feel about this... I could be for or against this whole thing.... I don't make quick uneducated decisions (just my m-o), so I can honestly say I am in a neutral corner.... PLEASE REMEMBER THAT - WHEN YOU READ THE QUESTION BELOW!

Having said that, you made reference to me about "True colors fly fast" based off of very, very, very, VALID points/questions I brought up --- Who you are?

My question for you is... Aside from making this initial thread, and post of you playing lead role in the "behind the first step in the right direction"..... WHAT else are you prepared to do secondly (besides this post)? What is your next plan for rallying the troops and getting people on board? I mean, ultimately you want people that are interested... so lets say there are people that are interested... What plan do you have next?

This is a legit question for you - this is not some bullshit "true colors fly fast" escape hatch.... This is real life questions...(just like the questions that I have proposed to you since my very first, and all posts).

And if you reply back with some bullshit answer about how this is "for the riders" or "true colors fly fast"...yada yada yada.... then you know something, your right! How dare I utilize the open discussion model here, and also be inquisitive as to mine and everyone else's (reading this) possible future footsteps!

Give me your answer please... I am all ears...and remind you.... still open minded about your whole concept!

[hook em 22]

....agreed?

Somewhat.. and, only generally!!

I see your cause is interesting on the surface. It definitely can generate passionate discussion from alot of angles, just by the example it generated 5 pages on a ****ing holiday with mostly no one home and near their computers..

Someone way, way higher up than just local promoters, needs to look at the business plans of three organizations and see how we could learn. Golf.. Nascar.. and Professional Bullriders. Two of the three, independent "contractors", just like we all are as Mx'ers. You can't tell me, or convince me.. bull riders became mainstream overnight. Tell me how the hell they can have an immensely successful bull riding event in Baltimore ****ing Maryland, and we can't even get a full gate at a world-class facility like a Oakhill, Freestone, or Underground, in a region chock full of some of the best riders in the nation, with as densely populated a region with tracks as there is anywhere else in the country?

Someone's greedy-ass business plan sucks for the racers, that's why!! I know where you race.. and you know where I race. And, my excuse is how the **** can I drop $1500 to go to a so-called National in Branson or Mill Creek, and get what back? Nothing!! National racing is grossly overrated, and way too expensive. Besides.. I learned long ago, I don't really want my kid to be the next Ricky Carmichael.. I think I'd be better served he be the next Josh DeMuth. I would much rather support local racing.. it's much healthier for us and mx in general, but the low gates are discouraging..

Like I said, I have no solutions.. but plenty of rants, and there's one!!

[mroark]

All this arguing makes my head dizzy. This makes me glad I live in West Texas. Here, we are not spoiled like you guys in the East are. We have 7 tracks within 300 miles to pick from. And yes, we all have to drive over 100 miles each weekend to race. Therefore, when we get to one of those tracks, we are happy to "get to race". No, we don't have 20 riders in every class, but you know what, if any of you guys come to one of those tracks, you will face competition. Just because the numbers are smaller does not mean you can't still have fun.

A word of advice to all you guys: Try to have fun! Isn't that what we all got into this for, in the first place?

By the way, just because numbers are small does not mean a track cannot stay open. I have been the treasurer for WTMX Park, the non-profit club that operates the track here in Midland, for 21 years. No, we don't make a lot of money, but we do continue to provide a place for young kids to learn to ride a motorcycle.

[TMRU]

my next step would be to start compiling a list of riders/racers and parents that are interested in joining forces to better the sport here in texas. next with probably a small group of commited individuals I would personally coordinate some membership drives to get the message out there and recruit other like minded enthusiasts. The only power is in numbers, so the main goal initially would be to build the numbers.

[SG Berm book]

That's what I wanted to hear! And, you know something.... in doing so your stage-name would no longer be adequate. If you get out of your tunnel vision and re-read all my post you would see that it's not that I don't "see the big picture", or am playing a blind eye. From a true and real standpoint I proposed a real-life, matter-of-fact, professional question with sound advice backing it up...


would you mind letting everyone know your real name / who you are? Since you are brainstorming this and attempting to get people to see your side... your identity will surely come out eventually anyway.

May want to throw it out there now so people know who their dealing with... just a thought !? This was not a stab at you... this was simply a way for racers to feel comfortable with who you might be. Yet, your tunnel vision on this matter only made you think that I didn't care and that maybe I am ignoring the bigger issues out there. I know there are bigger issues out there... any moron knows that! This was all just in hopes of giving you leverage which I feel you don't have much of when people have no clue who the hell your TMRU screen name is.

I guess we would just approach these type of things totally different.... Myself, I would lay it all out there that I am wanting to collaborate on starting up an entity, with everyone that is interested. I feel that everyone WOULD and SHOULD know who I was... while their thinking about playing ball with something of this magnitude!

[TMRU]

I kinda see your point but again, and I can not stress this enough, I do not want people jumping on my band wagon... I want them jumping on board for the cause... I think this is like the 5th time now but here goes again.... My identity has no relevance to the cause
I don't want people to know who I am for a specific purpose, not because I care what people think of me... I cane assure you that I don't give a shit what people think of me!
Back on topic please

[CParks14]

Hmmm interesting...well good luck on this one. But first I would advise you to get son new management because some of these posts you have made are very un-professional.....

[TMRU]

Why chime in with that? I am not applying for the CEO of Microsoft job. Maybe you can't read either, I do not want to be the management. Back on topic please

[Old Man]

From what I remember this used to be for fun (money or trophies)....track owners were racers too....the track owners wanted the same thing as the racers.... a fine day at the track.....

A need for a union indicates a division of ideals....(at least to me)....perhaps some type of governing body where racers and track owners discuss issues and ideas.....maybe the AMA.....but I am old....

[JOE]

Even if the job is flipping burgers at McDonalds, they do insist that you put your name on the application. Just sayin.

Oh, and flipping burgers can be a most respectable profession. I sure miss good ol' Joe Pang of Jim's Burger fame.


Now Playing: Lamb Of God - Ashes Of The Wake - Blood Of The Scribe

[SG Berm book]

Sorry guys, but rider unions have been tried many times in the past and have not worked since 1965 when the Texas Motorcycle racers Assn. was formed because there were NO tracks holding races in Texas. In 1966 Lake Lavon Raceway and the need for the association changed. The TMRA was sanctioned as an AMA club and was used only to obtain AMA race sanctions. AMA ruled everything in those days and only AMA Clubs were granted race sanctions. By the early 1970s the AMA lost it's power through court rulings. Promoters could then hold "outlaw" races with no fear of the riders losing their AMA cards.

A rider's union such as suggested now is like turning the insane asylum over to the inmates and could result with only two possibilities. Probably the union woul never get off the ground and would just fizzle out. However if the union gained some traction and started trying to tell promoters how to run their businesses they would more than likely just shut down and do something else. Right now there is very little or no profit in promotion so if the riders make it even tougher the promoters will find it easier to fo fishing.

Got to love Jack "The Father of Texas Motocross Announcing" Rhodes history perspective!!!! Good stuff, Jack

[spanky]

I am Shanon Parks, know as Spanky by most. I own and operate I-35 MX just north of the TX/OK border.

I have a few questions, if you can help me out with these... then I might even be inclined to join...

1. You mentioned larger tracks and smaller tracks promoting 2 different series with non-conflicting dates at the same time... For 6 years I have owned the Blizzard Winter Series. Every fall we work with Tony Miller to make sure our dates do NOT conflict with the TX Winter Series. His is the only other winter series... since the 2nd year we had this series we have seen a huge decrease in numbers. So why are the numbers decreasing? It's not a lack of quality tracks... Nocona, East Fork, Buffalo Creek, River Valley, and I35... same tracks that were used last year in the GNC series...
2. How do I get my practice #'s up? Keith mentioned track prep... we prep the hell out of our track. Groomed, and watered.... to perfection. Our track is the closest track outside of TMX north of the Lewisville/Carollton area. Our track is known as the best training track around said by numerous amateur and professional racers from ALL over the US. How do I get enough riders to pay for my equipment?

There was a mention of track promotors being closed minded... this is so untrue. I, myself, and many other track owners in North Texas have been members of two different promotor groups in the last 5 years. All intents were to better the sport, bring up the numbers, and ALL WORK TOGETHER. Fact is, the 1st thing you look at when promoting an event is the dates. EX: Branson, Mini O's, Ponca, Lorettas, GNC, Freestone, qualifiers, etc. ... then local series dates and holidays. When you factor all that in, there is not much room left for anything to be successful. So, you take a gamble in hopes that you can at least break even. This is probably how the current issue came about.

I don't now if it's arrogance or ignorance... but Shand gave you a valid piece of advice and you have yet to take it. So.... who is the closed minded one here?

Just my two cents... from someone who loves this sport.... and will NEVER get rich from it... I do it for the love of the sport and the people. I have worked in mx for 14 years so what I am doing here is not guesswork.

Look forward to hearing your advice,
Spanky

[TMRU]

A couple of things. First of all I am not even remotely interested in this being about my opinion. This thread and idea was started based on popular opinion across the majority of the board. Now we can dance around all day and act like all of the Texas promoters are great friends and there are no issues between any of them that wind up screwing us the riders but I know and you know that is bullshit!
Now, you fished so I will bite.. This is not the opinion of the union but my personal opinion!
I have been to your track and I would agree with those riders that say it is an awesome place to train, perfect dirt, great layout... The works. Problem with that is, you are blessed to be cursed. Meaning, what the small portion of riders who train to get faster like, and what the weekend warrior who will make you money like are completely different
river valley get maybe the most practice riders I've seen in Texas. Light prep, easy jumps, no ruts, no bumps... Weekend warriors love it. Now take underground, used to be amazingly rough, rutted the works... Changed it up a bit, added some clay , not as good of prep... Weekend warriors come out of the woodworks for it now... See the trend?

[Old Man]

You are one of the small portion of riders that are are training to get fast enough to make a living at racing?...if not what is the point....you are a weekend warrior.....

[TMRU]

In other words spanky, although I'm sure my opinion of your track is a welcomed one because I cannot think of a good reason to not go there, you would be much better served consulting a comittee of mixed genre riders who will speak the truth. What Texas motocross needs is some truth. I have personally seen numerous tracks closed down and the owner had no idea why. Hey dirtbike rider, what did you think of my track? Dirtbike rider- man it's awesome, meanwhile he hates it and never goes back.
How about aproaching a comittee that is conformed to be the honest voice of the other side from serious racer to 60 yr old guy who likes to ride twice a month? Do you not think that would be a helpful outlet to your buisness?

[spanky]

I think you could be on to somthing, but while the word "union" has a great meaning, unions do not give me that warm fuzzy feeling. First thing I'd do is change the name.

[codyw20]

I usually stay quiet and watch all but I have to add my two cents as someone who as been around for many years racing.
A couple (or more) of points:
1) Union or not, I am not sure that will work. The sport will still go on like it is going to go. Not for or against.
2) mroak has the most intelligent post on the whole subject. I used to race in Idaho and we had about 4 tracks within 300 miles. I would race against 3-5 people every week in the 125 Novice class. And as most racers know this is usually one of the most heavily entered classes. And guess what we loved every single weekend of it. The track made money and was the best time I ever had every weekend I went there. Did I want more, sure I did, but that just made the trip to Washougal to race against a full or half full gate a couple times a year so damn fun.
3) There really are some spoiled ass people here when they biggest wish is to have 'only one track' to chose to race on every week. Good lord people. I understand where you are coming from for more entries. But try living other places in the country then come listen to yourselves on this subject in the dfw area.
4) Track owners being greedy: do you seriously think most track owners get in the mx business to make a lot of money? Most track owners are just like most of us riders; they love the sport and want to be involved with it and make it better. Do some run it wrong? Maybe sometimes but they are not trying to be greedy and run other people out. They just want to be involved and have fun in the sport. And maybe make enough to to take their wife out to dinner a few times a year.
5) People that are negative about the sport or dont think other people can understand their view: One poster a bit ago said something along the lines of "most days I am ashamed to be part of motocross." That just blows me away, because it appears this poster might actually be a real motocross person. I dont know them, but I can tell you after reading a post like, almost anything you say in a later post will be ignored. You cant be a real fan and seriously think most days you are ashamed of our sport. My guess is you had a good pioint, but dang that sure came across wrong. Next; people that think you can't have a valid point if you dont have kids. You most certainly can have good points if you dont have kids racing. That is a cop out statement.
6) There are absolutley without a doubt organizations that do well for motocross and dirtbike riding. The AMA may suck someitmes at governing races but we would be totally, completley dead in the water if we didn't have their voice in government. And if you dont believe that you are way blind to how the "other" people that run this country operate. They may be well intentioned but they are some shelfish, close minded self serving people up there tyring to make policies. And without a voice we are nothing to policy makers.
7) Could things be better? Absolutely, but we really have it so great here. Every single day I drive through the gate and give them my 10 dollar gate fee I am a happy SOB. You never know when the last time will be you can drive through that gate and give them money. I don't mean to call anyone out personally, as anyone on this board is a good person in my mind in some way. Because they are part of the motocross family. And I am so damn proud to be a part of it. So keep up the arguing and fighting and whatever to make it better. But please people also see what is so !!#@%$! good about this sport. Sometimes 4 riders in your class is a good thing.

[jmtracing]

Justyn - I respect everyone's privacy, so until he wants it to be public knowledge I will not give the name.

It's absolute crazy to think that someone would try to gather a group of loyalist with a common interest but not disclose who he is.

LETS JUST SAY - that Tom, John, Steve, Elmo, Shand, Justyn, Kim, Betty and good 'ole Leroy decided to move forward with this plan/committe/group.... The 9 of us would have to meet up, gather, discuss... and so on.... Wouldn't at that point TMRU be known and revealed to the public like all of the said names above. I guess I just don't see the reason not to be forth coming what so ever! If you truly stand for what you believe in -- lay it out there! What's there to hide?

I guess the bigger question is... When exactly do we get to know the person "behind the first step in the right direction"??????????????????????????


Betty is hot. What happened to her?

[SG Berm book]

Betty is hot. What happened to her?

She is back around... and yes smoking hot. I will let her know you asked about her!

[Chest-Nut]

Hook, in response to your earlier reply about Bull riders having full events and making a shit-load of cash, why is it the young riders cannot make any actual cash for their efforts in AMA sanctioned events? I have asked this question several times and all I hear is the "AMA" will pull your amateur status. The bull riders, PRCA, the various team roping associations, basically all of the rodeo sports has payouts for the top competitors at all age ranges. Not sure on BMX or the board sports, if they can make money. I would much rather go to a race that has some payout even if it is only $10.00, hell that is better than some of the trophies he is getting. THe only thing that would get in the way is the amateur AMA status which would keep you out of the AMA races and big nationals, but if you are fast enough that will not keep you out of the pros once you are of age.

There may be more reasons than the AMA, but I would be 100% in a group that would stand up to the AMA and allow the youth to be rewarded with cash as opposed to trophies and gift cards that are basically useless.

Justin Harris

[buffalo_creek]

A few points from a guy who rides motocross, preps a track every week, promotes races and has spent too much money on the greatest sport:

A unified voice for the riders is a good thing but isnt this message board supposed to be that ? Unions take time and money to operate and I dont think amateur motocross riders have the time or the budget to support it.

Creating an adversarial relationship between track owner/promoters and the riders is counter productive. We need each other, share the same goals and it would take the fun out of race day.

If you really want full gates, go race every week and tell all your friends to meet you at the races.

The problem is not egos, the problem is greed. The status quo has created a stagnate MX scene, if you want change... question everyone and let your dollar vote.

Russell Hobbs

[Socia739]

A few points from a guy who rides motocross, preps a track every week, promotes races and has spent too much money on the greatest sport:

A unified voice for the riders is a good thing but isnt this message board supposed to be that ? Unions take time and money to operate and I dont think amateur motocross riders have the time or the budget to support it.

Creating an adversarial relationship between track owner/promoters and the riders is counter productive. We need each other, share the same goals and it would take the fun out of race day.

If you really want full gates, go race every week and tell all your friends to meet you at the races.

The problem is not egos, the problem is greed. The status quo has created a stagnate MX scene, if you want change... question everyone and let your dollar vote.

Russell Hobbs

+1

[bibby45]

A few comments;<O:p</O:p
- Entries are down across the board because of the economy - Period. A lot of people are unemployed, under-employed or scared they are going to lose their job or recovering from any of the above.
- Entries are down across the board because of the cost of racing / riding, see economy.<O:p></O:p>
- Entries are down because I think a large number of riders nowadays target key events ONLY. Picking where / when they spend their money, biggest bang for their dollar<O:p></O:p>
- A union will not fly in Texas - too many riders with different interests, geography too large, too many tracks.... plus we are in TX

- I do think track owners could leverage another revenue stream with an increased push for coop annual memberships. A coop between the major N TX tracks where I buy an annual membership that gives me unlimited annual access to any coop track for practice, maybe a few race entries per year to use at any track in the coop, discounted entries and gate fees and hell a voucher for a free hotdog on race weekend.

- Change the business model, get people to buy-in, 12 month membership commitement, offer prices for lump sum annual payment, quarterly payments, monthly. Don't just take the number of practices in a year and divide 20 to get the price. Make it a value offer, remember the economy...

I know if I was given a package like my cable TV, premimum package; 5 tracks full practice access (my choices RV, I35, Oakhill, UGMX, Buffalo Creek), 5 annual entry fees to use at the coop track of my choice, discounted gate and entry fee - and a food voucher all for $100 a month, I am in. And for the track owners, this is commited revenue in the bank...

I know this is difficult but instead of a riders union I would rather see a track owner coop -- much the way golf country clubs nowadays coop on course access. you don't join a single club you get access to many.

[buffalo_creek]

Coop is a good idea, I am open to talking about it with other tracks. The economy is obviously a big problem but it is a variable we cant change.

[crash617]

This thread was started by one of Obamas agents, ahem I mean tsars

[LawnDart]

Here is the reality: MX is dying at the grassroots level. New bike sales prove it. Participation at the races is another indicator.

Its not like it was 15, 10 or even 5 years ago. The cost of bikes, gear, etc, has skyrocketed. OEMs took away the affordable option when 2 strokes disappeared from the showroom. Gas is not going to get cheaper in the coming years. Those with disposable income are few and far between and only the hardcore racers are left. Insurance for tracks is stupid high and promoters now live in a climate of possible litigation. Injuries and fatalities seem more prevalent.

Promoters who schedule on top of one another.............well, that's really a small problem when you look at the bigger picture. You DFW guys don't have it so bad. Imagine living somewhere with only two part time tracks and only 50-70 people show for the races...............it could be much worse.

[huffster]

The tracks that are GOOD and just keep growing are, usually, the same tracks that ASK the riders what they think or what they want and try to honor that feedback. I have been on all 3 sides of the Powersports Industry (Dealer, Supplier and Track Operator) and this applies to other non-track businesses as well. Racing and riding is down and that is 100% due to our lousy economy that all the Clowns in DC want to perpetuate. I honestly don't see how any type of "Riders Union" would have any positive effect on the promoters or tracks in Texas. The tracks that want to hear rider input, will ask and listen. The ones that don't, Won't !

[motocop729]

This thread was started by one of Obamas agents, ahem I mean tsars

I think I have to agree with you on this one. LOL But then again I don't know anything about MX and I don't have the best interest in mind for the riders.

[spanky]

I know of over 100 riders who have quit in the last few years, most weren't due to the economy, just life in general. not everyone stays with anything for a lifetime. Someone said the sport is stale, or stagnant, and that is a fact. The sport has been the same for ever and has not evolved as it should. I tried a new thing about 6 years ago and it drew in about 200 new riders who were not racers, it came with a lot of ridicule from all sides, majorly from long time mx'ers and other promoters. it was a huge pain and didn't seem to be worth it, but I bielieved in it. 2 years into it I dropped it and I've only seen a hand full of new comers... Or it seems, since then. The promoting idea I had will never work, but I was atleast trying something.
I do have a new idea, but everything takes $ and it's hard to come by at this time.
What we need to do is grow the sport in a positive way and draw in new riders rather then run them off. how many times have you seen a kid get their spirit crushed because they aren't fast enough, or other riders made them feel like they suck? It happens all to much!
MX is the most awesome sport in existence. we need to remember that it is competition, but it's all about having fun.
Just my opinion...

[txgoon]

I know of over 100 riders who have quit in the last few years, most weren't due to the economy, just life in general. not everyone stays with anything for a lifetime. Someone said the sport is stale, or stagnant, and that is a fact. The sport has been the same for ever and has not evolved as it should. I tried a new thing about 6 years ago and it drew in about 200 new riders who were not racers, it came with a lot of ridicule from all sides, majorly from long time mx'ers and other promoters. it was a huge pain and didn't seem to be worth it, but I bielieved in it. 2 years into it I dropped it and I've only seen a hand full of new comers... Or it seems, since then. The promoting idea I had will never work, but I was atleast trying something.
I do have a new idea, but everything takes $ and it's hard to come by at this time.
What we need to do is grow the sport in a positive way and draw in new riders rather then run them off. how many times have you seen a kid get their spirit crushed because they aren't fast enough, or other riders made them feel like they suck? It happens all to much!
MX is the most awesome sport in existence. we need to remember that it is competition, but it's all about having fun.
Just my opinion...

Well said Spanky, we for one come to your track all the time for those kind of reasons. Look folks it boils down to yes the economy is shitty, yes the bikes are a freaking arm and a leg, and yes it is a complete ass whipping with all of the race over scheduling. Now that being said take a step back and look at all we have as far as track options and the blood sweat and tears these guys put in. I for one can take any day of the week and find a prepped and watered track for practice which is great since the days of the weekend warrior are kinda gone due to GREED across the nation. What I mean by that is that a whole bunch of us are forced to work on the coveted weekend and have to take days off during the week. There is no doubt that I would love to see the track owners have a track owner phuckin hot line, calendar, some kind of place that they can go log in fill in the dates and once they are there they can't be filled in by another track owner. Hell for that matter make it public at the beginning of the year on this website so that everyone has a heads up and can budget, plan, and know exactly what the low down is. Let me take for example this weekend, there are three different races happening , Swan, Freestone, and Three palms.. WTF?? Ok and that's not counting the little tracks around Burleson, Boondocks, Waco etc. Man this is so easy, don't over schedule each other and if you race you only have one choice that weekend if you decide you wanna run. Nothing but good can come out of it, better racing and yes track owners more money.... So here is my pickle, which track do I take my two boys racing two motos a piece (140) mom, me, grandma, grandpa, sister, and friend (60) and the rv (20-35) and that my friends is the case and point of this bitch session, $235.00 and we just came in the gate. Now I know for a fact that there are a bunch of us riders/racers trying to figure out where to put our hard earned money this weekend but Man o man wouldn't be nice to just have the one choice, now it's just a matter on if you are in or out... Cmon guys let's bang thIs thing out and get back to some good racing and yes get the track owners some cash flow so that the tracks stay in great shape.

[Kasberg187]

I like the idea of an online promoter's headquarters. That being said, half the promoters would use it; the other half wouldn't.

Texas is too big to say one race per weekend. 3 Palms, Freestone, Swan, and TNT (they're racing this weekend too) can run on their own without losing more than 10 entries to one another.

Also, most of those guys who race Waco Eagles and Burleson and Boondoxxx couldn't care less about Freestone or Swan. I bet they lose about 10 entries too.

There are 52 weekends during the year. There are at least 50 tracks in Texas. Take out Christmas, New Years, Easter, the Fourth, Thanksgiving, etc, and you've got more tracks than weekends. Most tracks need more than one race a year to stay in the black.

You think it's easy - it's not.

[ascend75]

What we need to do is grow the sport in a positive way and draw in new riders rather then run them off. how many times have you seen a kid get their spirit crushed because they aren't fast enough, or other riders made them feel like they suck? It happens all to much!


Sandbagging is definitely a reason a few of the guys I know that have plenty of money to pay race entry fees simply don't. Years ago when I started playing USSSA softball I quickly realized that the system had built in checks and balances to prevent people from sandbagging. A notable example was that the lower classes (for beginners and weekend warriors) had a no homerun rule. If a player on a team hit a homerun it got counted as an out. Suprisingly, all the homerun hitters moved up to a class where their hits would count. :idea:

[hook em 22]

I like the idea of an online promoter's headquarters. That being said, half the promoters would use it; the other half wouldn't.

Texas is too big to say one race per weekend. 3 Palms, Freestone, Swan, and TNT (they're racing this weekend too) can run on their own without losing more than 10 entries to one another.

Also, most of those guys who race Waco Eagles and Burleson and Boondoxxx couldn't care less about Freestone or Swan. I bet they lose about 10 entries too.

There are 52 weekends during the year. There are at least 50 tracks in Texas. Take out Christmas, New Years, Easter, the Fourth, Thanksgiving, etc, and you've got more tracks than weekends. Most tracks need more than one race a year to stay in the black.

You think it's easy - it's not.

I don't think it's nearly as much a state-wide problem.. it's a HUGE North Texas problem. If one goes to the Houston forums, this subject never comes up, and to me, appears to NOT be a problem.. Because, our areas (D/FW and Houston) are similar in sizes, and probably riders/racers numbers, but here in N Texas, we have alot more tracks, and especially top-notch or national caliber tracks. Like has been said, it's about number of riders versus number of tracks, etc,..

As far as losing "10 entries"? I do agree with the Waco and Burleson examples, but the others I'm not so sure of that. We, for one, are doing exactly that this weekend, and did it last weekend.. Looking at results and trying to pick the race that has the potiential for the bigger class size for us. My son (12 yr old) and I would rather go do the Freestone night race saturday night. Far superior track owner/promoter, far better track. And, certainly the Freestone night track is among our favorite. But instead we are gonna go to Swan on sunday, because the turnouts have been consistently bigger and better.

We use to "chase" tracks.. Now we check the results page, and try mostly to "chase" gates!! Lots of great examples of the problems that are hindering N.Texas racing.. economy, jobs, burnout, etc,.. But I can say without a doubt, the number one reason for ME/US, for the disgust is RACE DAY COST/FEES, and the over diluted race scheduling. I can say without hesitation.. regardless of economics or otherwise, we would race ALOT more if there was a definite of two things. Either much bigger gates for our classes, or racing was much cheaper. Either one is about bang for the buck. And, in the present.. I'm not getting it, so I can't spend it. At least not every weekend!!

[KtmLandonious]

before I get completely torn up by ppl, I would first like to thank all the track owners for all of the time and effort they put in their facilities I've met a few of yall and every1 has been really nice. But I completely give up on the idea of all of yall working together, I personally think it's just not possible. It's very unfortunate but it is what it is and I will continue to enjoy riding my dirt bike at the top notch facilities yall have provided which I'm greatful for.

Fourstrokes have made racing for the average joe just about extinct. Never in my life will I pay 7-8 thousand dollars for a dirt bike. Sry i dont wanna make this a 2 stroke 4 stroke debate just wanted to throw that out there.

[spanky]

I don't think it's nearly as much a state-wide problem.. it's a HUGE North Texas problem. If one goes to the Houston forums, this subject never comes up, and to me, appears to NOT be a problem.. Because, our areas (D/FW and Houston) are similar in sizes, and probably riders/racers numbers, but here in N Texas, we have alot more tracks, and especially top-notch or national caliber tracks. Like has been said, it's about number of riders versus number of tracks
Man I was hoping that Houston would be brought into this... Their stuff is so straight because you can't make a move down there without clearing it with the Houston mafia... Lol you guys would be blown away if you heard the convo that I had with a Houston promoter

[SG Berm book]

I would think this would include the entire state of TEXAS...since it's the TEXAS MOTOCROSS RIDERS UNION.


And.... TMRU makes mention of state-wide track safety in his very first post!


TMRU ----- Ok guys, looks like its high time we take our sport back...as we all know with the recent economic downturn the sport has suffered enough...then you add on the promoters egos and Texas motocross is all but dead...This is the perfect opportunity for us (the customers) of this sport to take control and speak with our wallets. We want good races I.E. the pro circuit series of old.. 1100, 1200 entries, good tracks to practice on, safety that is uniform across the state, and most of all Promoter cooperation...
Please understand that this is not just for racers, but also the weekend warrior, the woods riders, anyone who owns a dirtbike...the future of texas motocross depends on it...


Objective- Band together as riders and enthusiasts of the sport to regulate tracks scheduling on top of each other out of spite, desperation or any other reason. Regulate the safety of the riders across the state. To give ourselves a voice in the sport that we fund.

Goals- To form a comittee of capable members to oversee race, and practice schedules, Implement safety regulations and standards aand enforce them. Obtain legal representation for the group, and consult that representation on the individual member or groups behalf

Feel free to cuss and discuss...IT IS TIME!

[Kasberg187]

Houston and west Texas both have schedules on lock. I know for a fact in west Texas that you will almost always see the core group of racers at a different track every weekend. They race the track that is open and, many times, there is only one race happening.

Definitely a NTX problem. The only way to change it is to get some tracks to close - and none of us want that.

Where'd TMRU go? What are his thoughts on all this? Did the union shut down before it could start up? Or is he lurking in the shadows, waiting to pounce?

[SG Berm book]

Hahahahahaha... Who knows...!

[ktm300hater]

while your creating the perfect moto scene can you make it not so hot

[SG Berm book]

That's probably easier than what TMRU has proposed... (just my opinion).

[texomacountry]

I don't think it's nearly as much a state-wide problem.. it's a HUGE North Texas problem. If one goes to the Houston forums, this subject never comes up, and to me, appears to NOT be a problem.. Because, our areas (D/FW and Houston) are similar in sizes, and probably riders/racers numbers, but here in N Texas, we have alot more tracks, and especially top-notch or national caliber tracks. Like has been said, it's about number of riders versus number of tracks, etc,..

As far as losing "10 entries"? I do agree with the Waco and Burleson examples, but the others I'm not so sure of that. We, for one, are doing exactly that this weekend, and did it last weekend.. Looking at results and trying to pick the race that has the potiential for the bigger class size for us. My son (12 yr old) and I would rather go do the Freestone night race saturday night. Far superior track owner/promoter, far better track. And, certainly the Freestone night track is among our favorite. But instead we are gonna go to Swan on sunday, because the turnouts have been consistently bigger and better.

We use to "chase" tracks.. Now we check the results page, and try mostly to "chase" gates!! Lots of great examples of the problems that are hindering N.Texas racing.. economy, jobs, burnout, etc,.. But I can say without a doubt, the number one reason for ME/US, for the disgust is RACE DAY COST/FEES, and the over diluted race scheduling. I can say without hesitation.. regardless of economics or otherwise, we would race ALOT more if there was a definite of two things. Either much bigger gates for our classes, or racing was much cheaper. Either one is about bang for the buck. And, in the present.. I'm not getting it, so I can't spend it. At least not every weekend!!

Agree totally. We can pay $20 and practice with 3 or 4 riders my son's speed or pay a whole lot more to race with 3 or 4 riders where the chance is good all but one are alot faster so we end up racing with one guy which ends up being a very expensive practice session.
To many GOOD tracks chasing to few riders in our area. I honestly don't see how some of the tracks are going to survive much longer.

[BDP-381]

This is whole thing is giving me major tired head. We either need more riders or less tracks. Like I said around 4 pages back.

And yes we are spoiled to have so many good tracks in the area but it is not good for RACING...

[Junk]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/

[mxjeff2]

I agree Hater.

I'm a fair weather guy and this year has sucked! Snow/ ice straight to gail force winds and now extreme heat. TMRU, I want an a/c'ed race facility and I want it NOW! (and make sure it has flaggers and an a waaaaaambulance 'cause I've been studying Stewie's riding technique!)

[Cokeham]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/



lol

[thestockbroker]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/

I went riding today at oakhill, my wife took the kids to the movies and came out to find her car was stolen...thanks for the laugh, I needed it!

[spanky]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/

LMAO

[motocop729]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/

Obviously you don't know shit about MX, the sport, nor do you have any interest in the betterment of the rider.

[BDP-381]

This son of a bitch will be in toilet before you know it, and that's where it belongs.

[Kasberg187]

This thing is just getting good!

[BDP-381]

This thing is just getting good!

Your probably right Kasberg, it very well might be making a turn for the better..

We shall see

[therealdrew]

Personally, I think all this is way too complex. But, that's coming from a 15 year-old that barely knows what the fack a "union" does.
I think that we should all just get more people to ride.
If more people race and practice, then track owners can reduce the price, or they can reap the benefits.


So, with that said, would someone explain to me how this "union" stuff works?

[Kasberg187]

TMRU should explain.

[therealdrew]

"A union is an organization of workers who act together to secure benefits and rights in the workplace. Unionism is an important tool for worker's rights (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-workers-rights.htm), and many trade unions are open to membership all over the world."

Google search helps too.

But, we're not workers, and motocross doesn't give us "benefits" and "rights". We pay track owners to ride on their land, they take that money to maintain the track, and it circulates money, thus helping the economy. So we get to ride on a maintained track, and help the economy. Sounds like a win-win situation to me...

[Junk]

I'd like to see this get 20+ pages before it his the toilet...The mods on this site suck!

[BDP-381]

Should I start cussing alot and make fun of North 40?

[Junk]

I don't see why that would be a problem...hell, even deserves its own thread!

[jmtracing]

So I just got an anonymous email with a link to this:

http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com/

LOL

[jmtracing]

Should I start cussing alot and make fun of North 40?


It has been quite on here

[spanky]

"A union is an organization of workers who act together to secure benefits and rights in the workplace. Unionism is an important tool for worker's rights (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-workers-rights.htm), and many trade unions are open to members..
Actually years ago before child labor laws and such were in place, and there were horrible work conditions, unions were important... These days, unions are the downfall of free enterprise... IMO
Unions are the reason we have $50k pickups! I had a friend who got a temp job working for GM at almost 30 per hr for installing door panels... With no schooling at all! Thanks to the good ole union...
My old man told me years ago that unions were for weak people who couldn't stand up for theirselves. If your job isn't giving you what you deserve, and it's that bad, find a new one!

[Junk]

unions were for weak people who couldn't stand up for theirselves.

Very true! Not to be political, but you ever wonder why Unions are democratic?

[Kasberg187]

Get back on topic and start that discussion elsewhere!

DOWN WITH TEXAS MOTOCROSS!

Riders hate track owners. End of story.

[BDP-381]

Spanky, so what is the deal with the Houston mafia? and how they run their races/tracks?

[BDP-381]

Get back on topic and start that discussion elsewhere!

DOWN WITH TEXAS MOTOCROSS!

Riders hate track owners. End of story.

I am friends with several track owners and have a ton of respect for all of them..BUT, I have never met a track owner that said they were making a dime running / owning a track. Kind of makes you wonder..why the hell are doing it..or are they at least breaking even.

[Dpump]

Actually years ago before child labor laws and such were in place, and there were horrible work conditions, unions were important... These days, unions are the downfall of free enterprise... IMO
Unions are the reason we have $50k pickups! I had a friend who got a temp job working for GM at almost 30 per hr for installing door panels... With no schooling at all! Thanks to the good ole union...
My old man told me years ago that unions were for weak people who couldn't stand up for theirselves. If your job isn't giving you what you deserve, and it's that bad, find a new one!



This is a good post! Solid info!

[Dpump]

I went riding today at oakhill, my wife took the kids to the movies and came out to find her car was stolen...thanks for the laugh, I needed it!



Noo. Matt. I'm so sorry!

[suz341kid]

Ahhhh what happen to the site? It is gone. Not too sure what good this union would be. The only ground it has to stand on is poor race turnout. The "safety concern" point seems silly. Yes safety first always. But we all understand motocross is dangerous. When we go out to the track we all put our gear on. If flaggers are not present I am pumped because that means open practice, more ride time, and I am not paying extra for some kid to bake in the sun and text his friends. As far as rider turn out to races. The reason that the Pro Circuit Series was so big is because it had the REPUTATION of being the best. Everyone knew that if you wanted the best racing to go there. During the summer the Reputation of the serieses has gone down. There isn't a go to series where you know you will get good battles, good contingencies, and an awesome track. During the winter people know to go to the WInter Series presented by Freestone because the tracks will be awesome, good rider turnout, good contingencies, and a good series to put on the resume. It takes time to build a series up and prove to riders that THIS is the series to run. When the Full Moon series was big it took Russell a solid 4-5 years to get his attendance up but he kept making everything better and better so that it would continue to appeal to everyone. HE was packing in 500 riders for a NIGHT race because people were getting what they wanted.

A riders union will not be able to fix it. It is up to the promoters of the series to really show and convince racers that THIS is the ONLY series that should be on your mind because we have 1. the best tracks, 2. the best reputation, 3. the best contingencies, 4. the best rider turnouts, and 5. the best series to put on your resume, which ultimately stems from the previous four. Once they do that, other series promoters will not WANT to put their race dates on the calendar on days that the BIG series is having races because ultimately their turn out will be low.

This sight HAS a calendar on it but I never see any of the races on it. I am not sure if that is because it is not updated or if it is because the promoters do not place their races up their but as a rider who races every once in a while it would be nice to see what my options are.

[suz341kid]

Also why dates are not issued at the VERY beginning of the year is beyond me. THe cross country serieses are ALOT longer than ours and they have their series race dates DOWN a good year in advance. They know that their is a race date on said date so they plan accordingly. It seems odd that we MXers could not do the same. We always seem to be waiting until a month before the series starts.

[Tom Shields]

...... As far as rider turn out to races. The reason that the Pro Circuit Series was so big is because it had the REPUTATION of being the best. Everyone knew that if you wanted the best racing to go there. During the summer the Reputation of the serieses has gone down. There isn't a go to series where you know you will get good battles, good contingencies, and an awesome track. During the winter people know to go to the WInter Series presented by Freestone because the tracks will be awesome, good rider turnout, good contingencies, and a good series to put on the resume. It takes time to build a series up and prove to riders that THIS is the series to run. When the Full Moon series was big it took Russell a solid 4-5 years to get his attendance up but he kept making everything better and better so that it would continue to appeal to everyone. HE was packing in 500 riders for a NIGHT race because people were getting what they wanted.

A riders union will not be able to fix it. It is up to the promoters of the series to really show and convince racers that THIS is the ONLY series that should be on your mind because we have 1. the best tracks, 2. the best reputation, 3. the best contingencies, 4. the best rider turnouts, and 5. the best series to put on your resume, which ultimately stems from the previous four. Once they do that, other series promoters will not WANT to put their race dates on the calendar on days that the BIG series is having races because ultimately their turn out will be low.

This sight HAS a calendar on it but I never see any of the races on it. I am not sure if that is because it is not updated or if it is because the promoters do not place their races up their but as a rider who races every once in a while it would be nice to see what my options are.

Round of Applause!!!!! The go to series is the Texas Winter Series. Pre-Obama economy, the TWS averaged 854 entries in 2008. The series was still above 500 per round in 2011. The 2012 series will have more contingency than ever before so get ready.

[huffster]

Round of Applause!!!!! The go to series is the Texas Winter Series. Pre-Obama economy, the TWS averaged 854 entries in 2008. The series was still above 500 per round in 2011. The 2012 series will have more contingency than ever before so get ready.

Spam !! lol, jk

[Kasberg187]

Where'd all the angry people go?

[crash617]

ITS MY MONEY AND I NEED IT NOW!!!

Still here

[mroark]

Where'd all the angry people go?

They burned out, just like this thread.

[TMRU]

Still here. Taking it all in, some good debate. Food for thought, possibly the most successful track owner in Texas at the current time has little or no presence on message boards or in penis measuring contests with other promoters... Even his camera toting biggest fan has dissapeared from the limelight .... Any connection???

[Kasberg187]

Probably. Terry does his own thing. Just like Tony. Probably the smartest thing for a promoter to do.

But I have more fun stirring the pot.

[crash617]

You want to know where all the angry people are

http://youtu.be/QMBZDwf9dok

[TMRU]

I'm not talking about either of those guys...

[RPM168]

I can picture this guy in a leather vest with all his butt buddies at the track like "Hell's Angels." telling the track owner how to run his business and organizing boycott's against certain tracks. This is the time when someone step's in and says there is Method to your Madness, but really, there isn't.

[dave6]

THERE IS METHOD TO YOUR MADNESS!

[spanky]

Spanky, so what is the deal with the Houston mafia? and how they run their races/tracks?

Here on the top side, if tracks don't get along, they plan their races with no reguard to the other guy, schedules may conflict, if they do they do, if they don't they don't.
I had a track south of Houston call me a few years ago asking if I would be willing to extend my series down there. He went on to tell me that there was another track down in that area who we would have to include in the series, and clear it all through as well... The whole thing got deeper, and I wasn't real interested in it, but I listened for the humor.
It may seem like Houston has it figured out, but I for one am not interested as an enthusiast or a promoter in having someone dictate our sport for me... Dang it seems like they already have a union down there!

[TMRU]

And believe it or not spanky, the dictator down there and the dictator here have an ongoing quarel amongst themselves. Or are we still pretending the economy is the only reason people aren't racing?

[RPM168]

Spanky, I have been waiting for someone to call out the Houston area, you are so right, half the people on this forum have no idea how much you hit the nail on the head.

I generated 235 practice entries at Rio Bravo over the weekend but a certain track down here that thinks they're GOD can't produce 150 for a local race. It is very sad to see, especially when the track has sooooooo much potential!

[Kasberg187]

Stop beating around the bush with your bros and START DROPPING NAMES.

"It's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better."

"You gotta suck the poison out."

If we just throw everyone under the bus, have a HUGE fight, and beat eachother up, we can start to rebuild.

Union shmunion - it's time for a TXMX Tea Party!

[SG Berm book]

I wonder how many people/riders are "For this" movement...?

I also wonder when any plans will be set into motion to move forward with this idea/concept..... Other than this post?

[SG Berm book]

The tracks that are GOOD and just keep growing are, usually, the same tracks that ASK the riders what they think or what they want and try to honor that feedback. I have been on all 3 sides of the Powersports Industry (Dealer, Supplier and Track Operator) and this applies to other non-track businesses as well. Racing and riding is down and that is 100% due to our lousy economy that all the Clowns in DC want to perpetuate. I honestly don't see how any type of "Riders Union" would have any positive effect on the promoters or tracks in Texas. The tracks that want to hear rider input, will ask and listen. The ones that don't, Won't !

Hey Huffster ---- I got to see the BHB-The Dirtiest Player in the Game today. Sorry I did not get to see you... hopefully next time!

[TMRU HATER]

Would the real TMRU please stand up

[jmtracing]

Would the real TMRU please stand up

I doubt we will see that

[Junk]

Just to clarify: I've gotten numerous calls, txts, and emails asking who TMRU is...To same myself a large phone bill: I CANT TELL, the IP does not match with anyone else on the site!

Another thing, people keep telling me who this guy is...That's great, I really don't give a damn, but i'd think before you start telling everyone if your not 100% sure! I have heard 3 names, and all 3 of those people were "DEFINITELY" him.

Look, some of these people are fairly established in the community, and It would not be wise to be wrong about something like that, just saying...I've been threatened to court for less. (haha!)

Further more, I respect peoples privacy, and if this person chose to give me a call and reveal himself, I would not reveal his or her identity....

[mxjeff2]

Maybe it's Pat_Masac. Or MXJEFF2. Or...

[jmtracing]

This is good stuff

[ktm300hater]

I think its that nutsack34 guy

[Junk]

I think we should all meet in front of Bass pro and beat the shit out of each other!

[ball34]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/ryan793/2vuc9af.jpg

[Junk]

My day is complete, hahahahahah. Ahh Good memories! I am cracking up right now.

[Kasberg187]

BALL34!!!!!

[TMRU]

To the people who are truely concerned about the sport, the owner of this screenname has no meaning... To the assclowns whose only concern is the identity, all you are going to do is try and ridicule me publicly like a bunch of 11 year olds... It won't work..I don't give a **** what anyone thinks of me.
Small hint... Passwords are easily shared! Haha

[Kasberg187]

And believe it or not spanky, the dictator down there and the dictator here have an ongoing quarel amongst themselves. Or are we still pretending the economy is the only reason people aren't racing?

Are we still pretending you know what you're talking about? You're playing the "industry" card really hard when you say things like that. Keep it vague enough and people will think you know what you're talking about. Who are these people you think you know so much about? The "most successful promoter in DFW" - his "camera toting fan" - the "dictator in DFW" - the "dictator in Houston."

Stop saying worthless things and give details. How would this "union" ever work if you just talk circles around the point? You won't give your name, you won't say who you're talking about, you won't say what you think should happen.

It makes everything so much worse when you say "a certain track" or "one person in particular" - people's imaginations run wild and accuse you of pointing the finger at 4 different places, just like not coming out with who you are has the finger pointed at 4 different people.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MOTOCROSS.

[spanky]

Kasberg, if he knows that info, he is industry... And possibly out to truly better the sport?

[SG Berm book]

I wonder how many people/riders are "For this" movement...?

I also wonder when any plans will be set into motion to move forward with this idea/concept..... Other than this post?


I would like to propose these questions once again, since no one has answered them!

For the Public reading this.... How many people/riders that are following this thread are "For this" movement...? You can simply reply back with an "Interested" if you are one of those that are interested.

For TMRU (and, or anyone else that is already apart of this group/union)..... When will any plans will be set into motion to move forward with this idea/concept..... Other than this post?

These are legit questions... hoping to get answered!

[CamP]

I remember when Mosier could pull 600+ entries for regular 1st/3rd/5th Sunday races and there were always other tracks racing on top of them. No promoter coop, no big series dealio, just a shit load of people that wanted to race dirt bikes every weekend. Bikes and entry fees were cheap back then. Tracks were marginal, but everyone still had a good time because the scene was huge and the energy level was high.

[SG Berm book]

I remember when Mosier could pull 600+ entries for regular 1st/3rd/5th Sunday races and there were always other tracks racing on top of them. No promoter coop, no big series dealio, just a shit load of people that wanted to race dirt bikes every weekend. Bikes and entry fees were cheap back then. Tracks were marginal, but everyone still had a good time because the scene was huge and the energy level was high.

Excellent post, CamP!

[greg29]

its big dick white................. caps lock on screen name gives it away.haha jk dick

[rwhite]

DEF NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!! I WOULD NEED TO BE "COACHED" TO COME UP WITH AN IDEA LIKE THAT

[ktm300hater]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/ryan793/Dumb_and_dumber.jpg


this thread is dumb

[Junk]

Anyone that is new to the site or sport is currently "WTF'ing!?" right now!

[mxjeff2]

I remember when Mosier could pull 600+ entries for regular 1st/3rd/5th Sunday races and there were always other tracks racing on top of them. No promoter coop, no big series dealio, just a shit load of people that wanted to race dirt bikes every weekend. Bikes and entry fees were cheap back then. Tracks were marginal, but everyone still had a good time because the scene was huge and the energy level was high.

13 classes not 27, track gnarled out with square edge bumps, lips on all the jumps (teaches you to pre-jump), dust; pure beautiful misery.

Those of you who think promoter wars are new never met Surber. He would flat take your track from you... but I loved racing in those days...

[mxjeff2]

Take a break and watch this kid pop wheelies on his dirt scooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&hd=1&v=7MYJss-lynE&annotation_id=annotation_254274

[BDP-381]

Spanky, try this for one race:
$20 first class, $15 second class, $10 third class, $5 gate fee per person or $20 per car load, free camping, left over plaques for awards, and see what kind of turnout you get. Would this bring 250 entries?

[jmtracing]

Hey Junk do you know who he is ? LOL


j/k

[Junk]

Now wearing my River Valley "believe the hype" shirt...

[motocop729]

I think we should all meet in front of Bass pro and beat the shit out of each other!


Ill bring the ar-15 because I dont fight fair. Plus I never get close enough for anyone to lay a hand on me. LOL

[jmtracing]

Anyone know where I can get some TMRU T-shirts ?

[Junk]

Paypal me $50, after 20 orders I will ship them out....lol

[JOE]

Paypal me $50, after 20 orders I will ship them out....lol
Better watch it, that TMRU dude (assuming it is a dude) was quick to talk about getting legal and stuff.

I will advise to TMRU that "leading from the closet" doesn't work very well, especially in a heavily Republican state.

But it has provided some good entertainment, so whatever.


Now Playing: Sepultura - Beneath The Remains - Sarcastic Existence

[Dpump]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Pa-I16hshRo/TXOrfrH0utI/AAAAAAAAMb8/UycoFzV4N70/s1600/dd%2Bdscf3245.jpg

[Dpump]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RygxkknG4Dw/TXOsH_RVVhI/AAAAAAAAMc8/A6v-5klyrsM/s1600/ee%2Bme3.jpg

[ktm300hater]

nasty, do these chicks/dudes think they are hot.....ick

[greg29]

awe, hey scott, i don't blame you for not saying its you. but nice idea it just does not fit right now. a rider union was talked about and tried in the pro ranks and on the very first mention of it the little guys said ya you guys sit out and i might win a race. if your an ama member your part of a union sorta. its just the ama has our balls and holds that over the promotors heads for what they want and not what the riders need. imo.

[MX43]

I would like to propose these questions once again, since no one has answered them!

For the Public reading this.... How many people/riders that are following this thread are "For this" movement...? You can simply reply back with an "Interested" if you are one of those that are interested.

For TMRU (and, or anyone else that is already apart of this group/union)..... When will any plans will be set into motion to move forward with this idea/concept..... Other than this post?

These are legit questions... hoping to get answered!

NOT Interested. Not enough information for me to get on board with the TMRU. If its such a good thing, then convince me to join.

[mxjeff2]

As this thread reaches 5k views, it occurred to me that Pat's record of first post views may be in jeopardy.

The rider's union may not work but TMRU might leave a small skid mark in the underoos of Texas Motocross afterall.

[SG Berm book]

Hoffa..... Every union has a leader!

Apparently, except for this one!

I was told to "Feel free to cuss and discuss" .... No direct-to cussing here... but I hope to discuss!

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Hoffa)

[RPM168]

As this thread reaches 5k views, it occurred to me that Pat's record of first post views may be in jeopardy.

The rider's union may not work but TMRU might leave a small skid mark in the underoos of Texas Motocross afterall.


No it wont.

[Kasberg187]

Kasberg, if he knows that info, he is industry... And possibly out to truly better the sport?

If he knows that info, he'd be better off telling the truth and naming names instead of talking in general circles. Look, I can do it too:

"We all know one certain promoter really runs things in DFW. The methods he uses are questionable and it's obvious he's in bed with a couple other key people in the area. Pair those factors with the shady group in Houston led by the dictator there, and you've got a mess. There's only one way to stop these particular promoters and it's going to take drastic action!"

That is the equivalent to every one of his posts. I didn't really say anything - I just talked in circles without saying anything specific. It won't make a difference unless you start talking about REAL things.

He's either talking in circles because he doesn't know anything or because he's scared to make waves. Either way, it makes for poor leadership.

[Kasberg187]

Spanky, try this for one race:
$20 first class, $15 second class, $10 third class, $5 gate fee per person or $20 per car load, free camping, left over plaques for awards, and see what kind of turnout you get. Would this bring 250 entries?

Might bring 250 entries, but with those prices, you'd need 400 to make any money.

West Texas tracks charge $25 a class (on average), $5 gate fee. Their numbers have dropped as well. Lowering prices isn't the answer - the tracks don't make money as it is. I believe finding contingency is the answer - give people something to race for. When the economy dropped, the "industry" lost almost all of their promotional budget. No more sponsorships, no more factory money, no more freebies for prizes.

Think of the races that still do well. The ones with factory contingencies and great prizes. Factory backing = more riders = prestigious reputation = more riders = better prizes = more riders. Start a union and attack the industry, not the promoters.

[RPM168]

I can't get enough of this...


www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com (http://www.texasmotocrossridersunion.com)

[mxjeff2]

Might bring 250 entries, but with those prices, you'd need 400 to make any money.

West Texas tracks charge $25 a class (on average), $5 gate fee. Their numbers have dropped as well. Lowering prices isn't the answer - the tracks don't make money as it is. I believe finding contingency is the answer - give people something to race for. When the economy dropped, the "industry" lost almost all of their promotional budget. No more sponsorships, no more factory money, no more freebies for prizes.

Think of the races that still do well. The ones with factory contingencies and great prizes. Factory backing = more riders = prestigious reputation = more riders = better prizes = more riders. Start a union and attack the industry, not the promoters.

I won't disagree this brings riders but this is part of the problem. Sorry to go old school, but amateur racers should race for trophies or plaques. We've trained everyone to feel they should receive great rewards beyond that and guess what... it has to come from somewhere. That's part of the $8000 bike problem.

I could give two sheets about contingency $ and prizes, Vet payback, etc. Tracks and manufacturers can't keep giving without raising prices.

Racers race for prestige. Someone wants more? It's called a professional racing and it might not pay any better.

[SG Berm book]

If he knows that info, he'd be better off telling the truth and naming names instead of talking in general circles. Look, I can do it too:

"We all know one certain promoter really runs things in DFW. The methods he uses are questionable and it's obvious he's in bed with a couple other key people in the area. Pair those factors with the shady group in Houston led by the dictator there, and you've got a mess. There's only one way to stop these particular promoters and it's going to take drastic action!"

That is the equivalent to every one of his posts. I didn't really say anything - I just talked in circles without saying anything specific. It won't make a difference unless you start talking about REAL things.

He's either talking in circles because he doesn't know anything or because he's scared to make waves. Either way, it makes for poor leadership.

The whole thing needs to be scratched...and put into the toilet... as BPoarch suggested many pages back.

A) Poor Intro = Feel free to cuss and Discuss = Then takes aim at people (You don't know enough about the sport). Aside from post...no real fabric.
B) Not forthcoming with identity = Clearly a must with any action, positive or negative!
C) Doesn't "give a shit what people think of him", yet makes mention of us ridiculing him like a bunch of 11 year olds == A person/people really should care what people think about themselves!
D) Labeling people = Dictator track owners = No need to be unprofessional and label people if you truly want to be professional and make a positive impact. The track owners have done more for all of us than anyone else (when was the last time any of you could ride off the side of the highway, and or on public land)......and most if not all of them surely know who TMRU is, or could soon.
F) No answers when approached by legitimate questions. = The silence is brilliant just like the state-hospital hallways in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest!
G) Not one person has posted up that they are "For this movement / Interested". A 3rd grader could figure this problem out.


No fabric, no business plan... behind the slight battle-cry's of "Ok guys, looks like its high time we take our sport back" --- "This is the perfect opportunity for us (the customers) of this sport to take control" --- "the future of texas motocross depends on it" --- "Band together" and "To give ourselves a voice in the sport that we fund".

[Kasberg187]

I won't disagree this brings riders but this is part of the problem. Sorry to go old school, but amateur racers should race for trophies or plaques. We've trained everyone to feel they should receive great rewards beyond that and guess what... it has to come from somewhere. That's part of the $8000 bike problem.

I could give two sheets about contingency $ and prizes, Vet payback, etc. Tracks and manufacturers can't keep giving without raising prices.

Racers race for prestige. Someone wants more? It's called a professional racing and it might not pay any better.

POST OF THE CENTURY.

[SG Berm book]

POST OF THE CENTURY.

That JL-NTI is one smart cookie!

[spanky]

Btw Kasberg I wasn't agreeing that anyone in dfw dictates, just stating that he has some inside info.

[Paradise]

JL
Sunday morning 7:15 @ NS
Ok back on topic.

Unions suck.
And going to the moto races is boring.
Race one 5 lap moto wait 3-6 hours then ride another. Or I can race TORO and ride for 1.5 hours and actually feel like i did something.

[jmpatt79]

no union for me ......... i like being able to go where ever i want and go ride or race , yes i like large gates but then i cant get a trophy ........hey guys is this the thread of the century it has had some action ..............anyone have a yamaha 85 clutch for sale cheap

[txgoon]

There is just one more small item that I would like to mention that may help the number count on the gate. We have got to cut down on the classes. I mean the 50 class has 4-5-6 classes, 65 is the same, 85 etc you catch my drift. We need 5o A & B, 65 A&B etc and each class gets an open race for all ages on that size bike. Ok so in theory that is 15 classes if you go from 50-450 add a pro and vet class you now have 17. More on the gate, better racing, less $ going out on cheap plaques and quicker back to back racing instead of running a race and sitting for 3-7 hours between motos. The last race we went to had 28 classes WTF is that? So I'm no genius but here is some quick math. Using round numbers here, 300 bikes @ 25 classes is an average of 12 bikes per class on the line, Ok so the same 300 riders with 15 classes is a much better gate @ 20 per gate and a hell of a shorter wait time to get back on the bike. Just an idea, just an idea!!

[jmtracing]

One reason why we quit. I said one reason. Takes all day for half the peeps 3 yrs ago.

[ELVISKLEIN]

Ok Im new here and WTF!!!

[ibGoinAJ]

after just finding this, and reading it at 3 am on a friday morning... I feel like I just read a unimaginable graphic novel that has many theories about ancient aliens, and time travel, and religion that could not be comprehended in one session. Yet I powered through and feel enlightened. I feel inspired and disgusted at the same time... how can something so great be ruined like this?

I remember when I was just a child 10 or 12 years old, and I had a CRAZY aunt... (keep in mind this side of the family fails to hold jobs for more than a month at a time, do not own vehicles, yet they still go to school and father pays for everything (most work at libraries) at the age of 40) she is talking about how she quit her last job due to politics, they just became to much for her to bear... my father went on to ask for specifics and she just pandered about

she said she quit goodwill to move on to bigger and better things.